Interview with Gillian Bagwell


Gillian Bagwell is the author of ‘The Darling Strumpet’ and ‘The September Queen.’ Her latest historical novel ‘Venus in Winter’ about Bess of Hardwick was published in July 2013.



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Many thanks to Gillian for answering my questions.



(c) Berkley Publishing Group

(c) Berkley Publishing Group



Why did you choose to write about Bess of Hardwick?

I enjoy finding historical characters who had interesting lives but who haven’t been written about as much as the better known figures such as the famous queens and mistresses who are the subjects of so much historical fiction. Bess of Hardwick rose from a childhood of genteel poverty to become the most wealthy and powerful woman in England after Queen Elizabeth, she knew just about everyone of significance in England during the second half of the sixteenth century, and she was close to many historic events, yet she’s been neglected as the subject of novels, and I enjoyed the chance to bring her life to the page – especially her early life, which is not as well documented as her later years.


Bess witnesses many dramatic events in the novel. Which do you think affected her most?

Bess lost many friends and acquaintances to the scaffold, which must surely have impressed upon her the danger of political plotting and intrigue, and also simply the danger of being on the wrong side when the wind changed. It is documented that she was close to Jane Grey, whom she knew from Jane’s childhood, as she served as a lady in waiting to Jane’s mother. She kept a portrait of Jane near her all her life, and I think that Jane’s tragic downfall and death must have affected her deeply.


Why do you only cover Bess’s first three marriages and will there by a sequel?

Bess had a very eventful life and lived to be 80 years old, and I didn’t think I could possibly do justice to her whole story in one novel. Her fourth marriage was the longest and also the most unhappy, partly because of the enormous strain caused by Bess and her husband ending up with Mary Queen of Scots as a houseguest/prisoner for almost 17 years, which is a full story in itself. During the second half of her life she also renovated what became known as Old Hardwick Hall, built the new Hardwick Hall, married off her children in a series of advantageous matches, planned and maneuvered for years for her granddaughter Arbella Stuart to succeed Elizabeth on the throne, spent much time at the court of Queen Elizabeth and knew well such people as Robert Devereux, the Earl of Essex. All of that is more than enough for a second novel! I hope to write the second part of Bess’s life one day, but it’s not next on the agenda.


Which relationship out of the three husbands did you find the most difficult to portray?

Each had their own challenges. Very little is known about her first husband other than the general circumstances of their meeting, that they married very young, that he died soon after, and that she had to fight for her inheritance, so I had to flesh out his character and their relationship. I think readers of today might find Bess’s second marriage, to a much older man, not in keeping with modern ideas of what a marriage should be. I wanted to create a picture of a happy relationship without falsely romanticizing what was probably not a passionate relationship. I enjoyed writing about Will St. Loe, her third husband, but it was hard to follow fact and have him die so soon.


Which character apart from Bess did you enjoy writing about the most?

That’s a tough question! Of course Jane Grey is very appealing and fascinating, but her story is so sad. I had fun learning and writing about Bess’s friend Elisabeth Brooke, who married William Parr and became the Marchioness of Northampton. She was a spunky and determined character and was involved with or close to many events and people of historical significance.


I enjoyed the level of detail in the novel, e.g. how Bess received the portrait of Lady Jane Grey that she kept on the table beside her bed as a wedding gift from Jane. Do you have any favourite details that you included in the novel?

I wasn’t able to have access to much primary source material, like letters, but I enjoyed the letters between her and her Will St. Loe that are quoted in Mary Lovell’s biography of Bess, particularly the one in which he calls her the “surveyor of all my works.” And I loved reading about all the gifts he brought back to Chatsworth from London, including big knockers for the front gate, and included that in a scene.


How important were the Grey family to Bess?

They were very important to her. Bess’s service in the Grey household was surely how she met her second husband, and that marriage put her on the road to wealth and power. She must have learned a lot from Frances Grey about how to be a lady, how to run a great household, how to interact with powerful people. Yet her relationship with the family was tinged with tragedy. Frances Grey died at a not very advanced age, Henry Grey died on the scaffold, and all three of the Grey girls died young and in terribly sad circumstances, though Bess did what she could to help Katherine and Mary.


The story includes a meeting between Bess and Lady Jane Dudley at the Tower of London. There is no record of Jane receiving visitors whilst a prisoner in the Tower. What was your purpose for including it? *

I don’t think I’ve read that Jane Grey didn’t have any visitors. It was common for prisoners in the Tower to have visitors, and since Jane was comfortably was housed in the warder’s lodgings, where noble prisoners stayed, it seemed likely to me that she would have some freedom. She was allowed to walk on the grounds within the Tower walls. But whether it happened or not, I wanted Bess to have the opportunity to see Jane. Part of the reason is that it’s so easy to write historical fiction as if the outcome is known, but for a long time it seemed that Jane would not be executed, and it was important to me to have it seem as if she might live. Having Bess visit Jane allowed her to keep hope alive, and also allowed her—and so my readers—to understand Jane’s extremely strong religious beliefs and opposition to Catholicism, and how those may have contributed to Mary feeling that she had no choice but to execute her.


* I was wrong to assume that Jane was not allowed vistiors whilst imprisoned in the Tower of London. Eric Ives wrote in ‘Lady Jane Grey: A Tudor Mystery’ that ‘She did have occasional visitors.’ (p.253, Ives)

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My review of Tudor: The Family Story by Leanda de Lisle


Two years ago I was lucky enough to read an early draft of the first few chapters of what became ‘Tudor: The Family Story’ by Leanda de Lisle. It was a long wait until the finished book was sent to me to review, but it was well worth it. This is de Lisle’s best work yet.

What makes this different to other books about the Tudors is that de Lisle strips away the layers of politics to reveal the personalities of the Tudor monarchs and the extended royal family and the constant battle to secure the throne. The level of detail throughout is superb and the revelations about well-known events makes you stop and consider them from a different perspective.

‘Tudor’ takes you from the beginning of the dynasty with the marriage of Catherine of Valois to Owen Tudor, the birth of Henry Tudor to the 13 year old Margaret Beaufort, through the Wars of the Roses, the Battle of Bosworth, the reigns of Henry VII, Henry VIII and Edward VI and their struggle to secure the succession, the nine days reign of Lady Jane Grey, Queen Mary’s fight to win her throne to become the first Queen of England and the long reign of the last Tudor monarch, Elizabeth I. Throughout these events some of the lesser known members of the royal family tree are allowed to take centre stage and their full role in proceedings is revealed.

After de Lisle’s excellent ‘The Sisters Who Would Be Queen: The Tragedy of Mary, Katherine and Lady Jane Grey’, I didn’t know if there would be any new revelations regarding the nine days queen but again de Lisle has managed it. ‘Tudor’ examines the relationship between Jane and Guildford and questions the truth about the events of Jane’s reign. Two of the topics of the five appendices relate to Lady Jane. Appendix 3 is about Jane and her husband (‘Guildford and Jane Dudley’) and Appendix 4 is about Jane’s mother (The Myth of Frances Brandon the Child Abuser).

‘Tudor: the Family Story’ is quite simply a ‘must read!’


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Tudor: The Family Story – Q&A with Leanda de Lisle

Thank you to everyone who entered the competition. Leanda de Lisle has very kindly answered all the questions that were submitted.

Sarah B & Anne:
Who is your favourite personality from the Tudor period and why?

I am fickle in this regard. Henry VIII is endlessly fascinating (although not ultimately very likeable!). But then I will become very interested in the internal world and private life of less well-known figures like Queen Elizabeth’s godson, Sir John Harington. I very much enjoyed researching the life of Henry VIII’s niece Margaret Douglas for Tudor – an extraordinary and largely overlooked life in the Tudor canon. I also grew rather fond of Owen Tudor – he was a brave man, loved by those who knew him, a very romantic and again largely forgotten figure. He would make a great subject for a movie.


Nicola:
How do you think Henry VIII would have been if he hadn’t of had his accident at the joust in 1536? Would his reign have been any different if the accident had never occurred?

I don’t think it affected his personality as some have suggested. If, however, Anne had not miscarried her baby (as she says she did after learning of the accident), and the baby was the boy it was reported to have been, then Anne I am sure, would have kept her head…for that year at least!


Carolyn:
Why did the Princes in the Tower really disappear? Were they regarded as a major threat to Henry Tudor’s claim to the throne, even though Richard III had declared his brother Edward IV’s marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was invalid, and the two princes were illegitimate?

Henry VII had the claim of illegitimacy quashed so that his wife and their children would not carry that taint. But even during the reign of Richard III there were many who did not accept the Princes were illegitimate. Loyalty to the Princes was a threat to Richard and Henry – and remained so even when they were dead. For why they ‘disappeared’ you should see the October edition of BBC History magazine (out mid September), because it is not a short or easy thing to explain. I also go into it in my book.


Lauren:
What made you decided to write a book on the family story of one of the most notorious royal families in England?

I had already written two books on Tudor dynastic issues, and felt I was now ready to tackle the full family history. I was keen to start early – before the Wars of the Roses – because I felt that the fifteenth century story is as amazing as the more famous reigns of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I, and helps us understand these later reigns better. I also felt there were many family members during the later period whose stories are too often overlooked, and which readers will enjoy discovering.


Eliza:
What do you think happened in Anne Boleyn’s fall? Was it all Cromwell, who wanted her out of his way, or Henry ordered Cromwell to make Anne disappear and Thomas just obliged?

I think it was a perfect storm of ill will that came together against Anne at a moment when she was vulnerable. Henry wanted to be rid of her, but didn’t know how to go about it without it seeming the Pope had been right to forbid his divorce from Katherine of Aragon. Cromwell saw this, wanted her gone, and showed Henry how it could be done.


Rebecca:
With all the negativity towards Anne Boleyn, Do you think she did what she was tried for, or was it all a big mistake by people just wanting her out of the way? Anne is my favourite of all Henry’s wives and I look forward to hearing your honest opinion….

I believe Anne was innocent of adultery. She was not a stupid woman and playing around behind Henry’s back would have been very stupid. She also went to her death saying she was innocent of adultery, and in a religious age I cannot believe she would not have confessed such a mortal sin if she had been guilty of it.


Denise:
Which previously overlooked person actually played a major role in changing history and how?

Henry VIII’s niece Margaret Douglas: Her role in strengthening the Stuart claim to the Tudor throne has been greatly overlooked. She was hugely important is arranging the marriage of Mary, Queen of Scots to her English born son, Henry, Lord Darnley, and although the marriage was a disaster for Mary personally, James’s paternity made him a) a Stuart king and not, say, a French one, and b) made him an acceptable heir to Elizabeth in England, despite his foreign birth. Also important and not much written about was her mother Margaret Tudor, and her grandmother Margaret Beaufort.


Aimee:
What made you become interested in the Tudor period?

Ooooh, gosh I can’t remember: as a child I loved all the old Tudor movies such as Anne of a Thousand Days and A Man for All Seasons, as well as the drama of the Armada. I think it is often fiction that first triggers a child’s interest in history.


Rhiannon:
If Prince Arthur had lived what impact do you think that would have had on the country today?

I think it is quite possible the British isles would be Catholic, we would have some medieval wonderful art and music that was destroyed at the reformation, and later art and music that was never commissioned, we might have avoided the English civil war, our relations with Ireland would be that much less bitter….but whatever horrors we avoided, others may have befallen us.


Kristie:
What influence (if any) do you feel that Margaret Beaufort had on Henry?

Interesting question – they were parted when Henry was just five years old, and saw very little of each other until he was twenty-eight. But he knew she was utterly loyal to him, and he was not a man who trusted many people. As king he looked to her for advice on a kingdom he barely knew, and I think her influence on him as king was considerable – although one has to be careful not to exaggerate it.


Natalie:
Why do you think Elizabeth did not want Katherine Grey’s son, Edward, to succeed her?

I think she resented the Seymour family of Katherine’s husband after the danger she was put in by Thomas Seymour, who wished to marry her, and her treatment at the hands of his brother the Protector Somerset. These memories were revived and inflated after Katherine’s secret marriage to Somerset’s heir, Hertford, a marriage that was extremely dangerous to Elizabeth. Katherine’s son represented a possible Protestant, male, alternative to Elizabeth, and if it hadn’t been for the fiasco of Jane Grey’s nine day reign, Elizabeth might well have been replaced by Katherine and Hertford: Protestants in particular wanted a king. Elizabeth never forgot or forgave Katherine and Hertford for that. Also, Elizabeth was a dynastic legitimist, and King James was her closest heir in blood.


Andria:
Bearing in mind Henry VIII dark reputation regarding his treatment of his wives, why, during a reign of fear, did nobles believe that their daughters, should they marry Henry, would not meet a grisly end?

Hope springs eternal in the human breast! If their daughters had sons everyone’s lives would be transformed…


Cathy and Valerie:
Do you think Hilary Mantel’s softer, family man interpretation of Thomas Cromwell has any bearing in reality, or was he just as cunning and ruthless as most historians tend to interpret him as?/ What are your thoughts on how Thomas Cromwell has been treated by history?

I’m afraid I think Thomas Cromwell’s portrait with its cold and vicious eyes says it all. This was a man who bullied juries into condemning Carthusian monks, widely regarded as the holiest men in England, to grisly deaths. He cared little for the law and less for the lives of anyone who didn’t share his world-view. I’m sorry to say some of my ancestors worked for him!


Gail:
Elizabeth was close with her cousins from her mother’s side of the family. Is there any evidence that Elizabeth ever discussed their family history with her Boleyn cousins?

Not that I am aware of. But Elizabeth went to great lengths to honour her mother’s memory without actually mentioning her name in public. She wore a ring with her mother’s face in it, and promoting her Boleyn relations was amongst her first actions as Queen.


Kate:
Given the amount of books already written about the Tudors, did you feel a pressure to deliver something completely different as to what had already been published?

I didn’t feel that pressure to be honest. Publishers are quite happy with unoriginality and I was even told by a great editor (not mine) that I should remember people like clichés! That being said I would have died of boredom if I were just going to re-write other people’s research and ideas. I want to explore, I want to think for myself. And that is why I began the book long before Bosworth. I thought….oooh, not much about that in other Tudor dynastic histories, I wonder what happened then?


Amanda:
Over the last couple of years, Tudor history has been given a new life with more interest invested in it. What do you feel is the most significant idea put forward so far and do you feel that there are any areas which have been grossly misinterpreted or neglected?

Gosh that is a hard question. Eamon Duffy made us look at the Reformation again, exploding the old view that it was popular, but that was over twenty years ago – Peter Marshall is writing a new book on the Reformation for Yale, and that will be an important book. Peter Lake has done some every interesting work on the Elizabeth period, and on the growing importance of political and religious debate outside the elite, and I think that is something we will hear a lot more about. John Guy is currently writing a book on Elizabeth’s last decade, which will be very interesting I have no doubt. Judith Richard’s essays on what Elizabeth learned from Mary inspired some of my own book, and anything written by Tom Freeman is a gem. I learned new things from him about Katherine Parr’s quarrel with Henry VIII in 1546. Areas misinterpreted or neglected? I think more work remains to be done by academics on the life and afterlife of Jane Grey (I think John Guy will be looking at that too) and I feel that Margaret Douglas deserves a new biography.


Margherita:
If Katherine Grey had been allowed to live with her husband Hereford how would that have affected Elizabeth’s sense of security over her throne?

Katherine already had two sons – she could have had a dozen! Poor Elizabeth would have felt sick with horror at the birth of every one of them!

If Lady Jane Grey had not been forced into marriage and the thrown how do you think her life would have unfurled in England of the 16th Century?

I am not convinced Jane was forced to marry. She was wed at the usual age for a nobleman’s daughter and it was usual for such marriages to be arranged. The evidence is that she respected Guildford at the very least – see the guest article I did for this site. I doubt she would have chosen to be Queen. She accepted what she believed was her duty, and fought to keep her throne. If things had been different, if all her choices had been entirely her own, I expect she would have married a passionate Protestant from the elite (as Guildford was), and been the passionate advocate of Protestantism she died as. The difference is she might have lived a lot longer, and maybe had children.


Helene:
Which Tudor personality do you think is the most underrated and why?

Margaret Douglas who has not had a strong biography written of her – possibly because the lack of romantic portraits of her as a girl has made her unappealing as a subject to publishers.


Martha:
Henry VIII was believed to idolise King Henry V who, though a forerunner, was not his direct ancestor. Given that the Tudor dynasty sprang instead from the middle Lancastrian’s widow Catherine of Valois, how frustrating do you think Henry found being so close to and yet so obviously far from the hero of Agincourt, and how far do you think that his descent from Charles VI of France through Catherine was in his mind when he ‘reopened’ the Hundred Years War in 1513, despite the fact that emphasising this claim may have in turn emphasised the dubious nature of his conventional claim to the French throne via Margaret Beaufort, and indeed the English crown itself?

Henry VIII was certainly frustrated by his lack of success in France. He wanted to be crowned in Paris as Henry VI was. But he saw himself as the heir of York as well as Lancaster and it is significant that he chose in the end to be buried not with his father and grandmother, Margaret Beaufort, but with his Lancastrian half uncle Henry VI, and his York grandfather Edward IV. He was the living embodiment of the union rose. I think his co-descent from Edward III was more in his mind when he went to war in France than that of Catherine of Valois who he never even bothered to bury (she had been dug up when Henry VII re-built the lady Chapel).


Kerry:
Do you think/feel that Queen Elizabeth I ever regretted putting her paternal cousins, the Ladies Catherine and Mary Grey under house arrest? Lady Catherine was imprisoned for 7 years until her death at age 28. Was her death the reason why she took Lady Mary out of house arrest and made her one of her Ladies-in-Waiting?

No. Lady Mary remained under house arrest for many years after Katherine’s death. She was only released after the death of her husband Thomas Keyes. I write a lot about Mary in my book The Sisters Who Would be Queen.


Drew:
Which historic person from the Tudor period would be most at home in the 21st Century ?

Elizabeth I. She could handle anything.


Vonni:
If Jane Seymour had not died after giving birth to a son, do you think that the marriage would have lasted and been his final marriage?

If she had outlived him and not died in childbirth later, or of anything else, then yes, I think so.


Sarah L:
I would like to know what your opinion of Jane Seymour is? History has painted her as a fairly bland character when compared to Anne Boleyn, someone who was coached by others in order to ensure she was appealing to the King. Do you think she was the meek mild woman she has been portrayed as or do you think she was every bit as ambitious as Anne was?

I think she was as ambitious as Anne – perhaps more so. Anne did not want to have an affair with Henry, but she was trapped into it – no one else dared marry her. Jane Seymour, on the other hand, set out to seduce Henry into a marriage, which would mean Anne’s death. She married Henry when Anne’s body was barely cold. Her brothers were extremely ambitious highly intelligent men. I suspect she was too, and knew to hide it. Ice isn’t bland, it’s cold and it burns. That was Jane Seymour.


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And the winners are…

Congratulations to:

Sarah B
Rhiannon
Andria
Cathy
Kerry

Your names were selected by Chatto & Windus Publishers to win a copy of ‘Tudor: The Family Story by Leanda de Lisle. I will be emailing you shortly.

Thank you to everyone who took part. You sent in some wonderful questions which Leanda has answered and I will be posting them later today.


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The Battle of Flodden by Leanda de Lisle

Leanda de Lisle wrote an article in yesterday’s Daily Express about the Battle of Flodden which took place 500 years ago next week. The article emphasises the roles of Queen Margaret of Scotland and Queen Katherine of Aragon.

500 years ago- the bloodiest of battles by Leanda de Lisle

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